"It is extremely difficult to say what is a good educational program except in terms of a particular society; a school can not be separated from the content of its overall social framework."

Dr. Alphonse, the community college idea in India is about nine years old. Why did you choose it as a vehicle to affect change in India's education of its poorest people?

As you know I am the former principal of Loyola College in Madras and a teacher of life skills and developmental English. For some time I have been troubled by what I see regarding educational opportunities for the "backward people" of my country, the poorest of the poor. Too many of them have no hope or opportunity to receive an education that would prepare them for a different way of life. Thus, I sought and received to study the United States system of community colleges. I was impressed with what I saw and experienced.


What did you discover?

The U.S. community colleges are democratic colleges, they are people's college, they provide equal opportunity for all especially for groups like the Afro-Americans, the Hispanics and refugees who come from different parts of the world. Equal access and opportunity were of particular interest to me. ... And what I liked most was access, flexibility and cost effectiveness.


How is this related to India's condition?

I felt the system to be absolutely applicable to India, because as you have seen here, there is much underemployment, unemployment and number one, unemployables. There are nearly 45 million graduates who are unemployed in this country, or are registered in the unemployment exchanges. So I felt the same system could be utilized.


Are there any changes you have made to make the U.S. system fit your needs?

What we have added on in India are elements that make it applicable to our local indigenous people. First, we begin by ensuring a program of life skill, life coping skills, interpersonal relationship and communication skills. I sincerely feel that a student from the socially, educationally, economically backward groups coming into community college must first gain self-confidence and self-esteem and self-motivation.

The whole idea of making them fit for life and fit for a job is done through these life skills and that is an essential difference that we have made. In the last eight or nine years we have focused on an alternative system of education for the socially, economically, educationally backward groups in India. The aim of the community colleges is the empowerment of the disadvantage groups through appropriate skills development leading to gainful employment. Our watch word of the movement is access.

Anybody can come into these institutions to get training for jobs and thereby we can call the whole scheme "Education for Livelihood." And we are aiming at the urban poor, the rural poor, the tribal poor and women. The most needy groups in our country. And therefore, there is access. Second thing is flexibility and curriculum and technology. And cost effectiveness, you make the cost as low as possible so that the poor can really benefit by it. And so you have access, flexibility, cost effectiveness and quality training, and equality of opportunity.

So the community college is based on the whole philosophy that merit is an opportunity and excellence is developing the latent potential in the individual person by giving him or her the right type of opportunity, at the right time in his or her life.


Prior to this taping, we were discussing teacher training. Can you tell how it takes place and who is involved?

Yes, there is a lot of unemployment even among the teachers in the teaching profession. There are a lot of young graduates and postgraduates, who are looking for a break. And the agencies that start community colleges look for them among postgraduates in literature, English, and post-social workers who have completed their post graduate degree in community development, counseling, teaching of English. We recruit such young people through the agency and they send them to our Center for Training. We give them that orientation; we give them that vision. And we even tell them that if they are just going to depend upon the salary, if they have set their eyes and hearts on that salary, I don't think they can really be community college teachers.

That's very true.

We expect them to share the vision that community colleges help empower people. We have succeeded. There are some 500 trained students and teachers that we can identify throughout our program. For example, we are using undergraduate degree holders for teaching of computers. They do it very well, they go to the level of the student, they are able to teach, and they are very committed. So what we look for in the community colleges teachers is again sharing of the vision and commitment to the task of helping the poor.


Do you certify the teachers through the Madras Center?

Yes, we give them a certificate at the end of the six days of training and orientation.


Is there opportunity for advanced training in your scheme? Are there steps in your systems currently?

Thus far, we are trying to establish a program to meet needs. The first step pertains to an orientation program to community college teaching. It is for those who are starting the new community colleges who know and have helped implement the system. This is common to all teachers.

The second is aimed at life skills for teachers. Here we hope to help them in the review and development of textbooks for use in the curriculum. We place the books in their hands and ask them to comment, review, and redevelop the textbook as appropriate. We are laying claim to preparing the textbooks for use in the classroom across all community colleges. The third is curriculum development workshops and that is where we need help from the U.S. and in particular AACC. You have decades of experience and whereas we can identify what is locally needed, you can bring the expertise as it relates to format, methodology and student evaluation procedures.


As you have developed your vision for the community college in India, can you relate to us some of the stories that lead you to believe the system is making a difference?

I would give you the story of the medical hope of a girl of 21 years old. Her name is Sylvie. Her father is jobless, her mother a housewife, very poor family and socially she belongs to the backward class. She studied office assistance. After all of our life skills, work skills and internship programs, now she's placed in an industry. She now makes around $70 a month. She feels that she is able to do this because she gained the self-confidence and self-motivation in her life because of the training she received in the community college.

She has two brothers and a sister. She has taken her sister to the same industry to operate on the machines. She gives the community college credit for transforming her life. So I can relate hundreds of cases like this.

A girl, called "Little Flower," in another college, went for office assistant and her grandmother had to be fed three times a day. She had no money to pay for her training expenses, community college fees, so she took the trouble to get us an application, take training and now she is in charge of a unit of an automobile four-wheeler, two-wheeler mechanic workshop, and she's earning more than $100 a month. And she's helping, in turn, somebody in the community college to be educated. So we can have many stories of miracles of hope like this. Through students in our community college, we have made a quality difference in the lives of the people.


How many community colleges are there in India?

Today, there exist 95 community colleges all over the country, in 12 states of India. I work with about 65 of them through our center. The last community college to begin was in Andhra Pradesh in January 2003.


Can you describe your student population?

We are dedicated to the empowerment of the socially, economically and educationally disadvantaged groups (Dalits), leading to employment resulting in the alleviation of poverty. We have claimed 13,000 students and 11,000 people have got jobs. And around 1,500 students have gone for further education because of the confidence they have gained in the community college. Approximately 69 percent of the students are women, 92 percent are socially backward groups. Hindus equal 58 percent; Christians 38 percent, Muslims 4 percent.

Other areas of student identification include, economically poor. They are earning $20 to $100 a month, which is almost doubling the monthly family income of the students. So 70 percent employment we have achieved.


In the last seven to eight years you seem to have had phenomenal success in introducing the idea of the community college to India. How are the colleges organized?

Generally, we have an advisory board. It consists of eminent people from areas of banking, government, science, business and education. They help to manage the affairs of the college. They help in need analysis, curriculum design, planning of relevant courses, advising on job placement, and fund raising. A director who is the chief executive officer of the college looks after the day-to-day operations.

Each college that is developed occurs out of the interest and commitment of the community to raise the money needed to support the college of their choice. Most have as their primary focus on-job training to meet the needs of industry. Generally, many of the agencies already exist and they approach the Madras Center to become community colleges. We work with them. We explain to them that there are stages they must go through before being so identified. If they are interested, their board passes a resolution indicating their intent and then the college comes into existence. Among the stages for inclusion are: financial support, governance structure, admission policies, life skills/work skills curriculum, vocational training and placement, student services and counseling. Some have succeeded with the model that I have described, while others achieve only some of the levels.


How are the colleges funded?

There is no government funding, no state funding. If an agency opts for the community college, they must provide the financial sustenance to the college. There are creative ways. We maintain an ongoing, dynamic relationship with our industry partners. For example, I have taken part in many governing board meetings where the industrial partners are there, and usually a community college comes up with a deficit of maybe $10,000 in the budget.

The industrial captains, who realize the value of the system to their workforce, will help to clear that deficit and raise more money through paying for workforce training. Another strategy has been through agency use of other systems or funding sources to reduce the cost of tuition. On fees of 60 to 80 U. S. dollars a year that we charge the student, we may, because of poverty, get only 30 percent of the money. The other 70 percent comes to us from outside through industry sponsorships and scholarships both from inside and outside the country.


Describe the facilities that most of the colleges operate from?

For the most part we operate out of existing facilities owned by the agencies that apply for status as a community college. They have the equipment, the classrooms, and some resources that help the concept survive. We also work with our industry partners who train students through internships on-site. Some professionals, such as doctors, bankers, bakers and weavers serve as teachers on their own sites to help train our students.


It appears through our conversation there are 95 community colleges in one form or another across India and 65 of which you have direct contact. Each has approximately 13-17 representatives from across the business, lay and professional communities, teaching faculty, and people with certain expertise, serving as board members. Do these colleges operate independent of each other? Is the Madras Center a regulating body?

Currently each college operates independently. They get no government funding, they are responsible to the people in the community and they set their curriculum based on an analysis of need within the area. The Madras Center conducts some of the studies for the analysis of need. Remember, India is quite large, thus every state could almost be seen as a nation with many unmet needs.


Is the Madras Center a regulating body?

No. We exist for the community colleges in India as a coordinating facilitating agency to provide services. We are not a controlling body. We aim to provide support services to colleges in areas of curriculum development, teacher training; information dissemination, use of technology, and research support dedicated to uncovering how the community colleges in India are impacting the lives of the people they serve. We are working on redefining our role so we become known as the National Institute for Community Colleges India.


Given the size and complexity of needs among the community colleges in India, do you envision the need for a regulatory agency?

We will reach a stage in the next three years to evolve where we put together a system-type organization chart that shows governance guidelines, rules, regulations, etc. We have already put together some regulations for occupational training in the colleges, governance and curriculum development. We need to do more. When we do, it should be without sacrificing the target group, without sacrificing the empowerment of the poor, the original vision of the community colleges in India, and also without sacrificing what we can achieve for the whole country as a nation. So, all the guidelines and rules should not become fossilized ones. They should be highly flexible.


Why is this important?

In India as you know, a separate state is equivalent to a European nation. Each state has its uniqueness in language, culture, history and religion. We should not sacrifice the uniqueness of the states and their own special needs for the sake of being the same. In America, through the community colleges, you can promote the whole United States. Here in India it is not possible or even desirable to form such a model because of the differences and variations in the conception of culture, languages, manners, customs, dress, etc.


Regarding governance, what challenges do you face getting people to participate on the board? Is there training available to the people who make up the governing body of each college?

We employ several strategies. One, we show them how it is a win-win to have a trained workforce in India. Secondly, we remind them of their need to serve the community and the obligation they have to do so. Thirdly, we ask them to commit themselves to the vision of the president of India who says, we want and need a strong India, a powerful India; but that a powerful India without the quality of life of the poor being trained and educated, is a weak India.


You have talked about access, equal opportunity, job development, teacher training, finance, student success, governance and how they work in the India's community college system. As you advance further, how can the American Association of Community Colleges contribute?


The United States and in particular AACC has helped a great deal. But what we need now are books on the community college system so that we can further advance. We also need help in training our boards. We are still used to having a top-down model from the government and they need to learn how to govern. We also need teachers to help us in the evaluation and development of learning outcomes. In India we focus a lot on memorization and rote learning. We also need to have teachers come over and work with our teachers on program development. And as usual we are always in need of aid to help the poorest of the poor in India. We need you to work with others in America and from India to help generate support for the backward poor in India.